Borat: just plain funny? or racist and xenophobic?

by Carmen Van Kerckhove

borat Quite a few of you have brought up the upcoming movie Borat: Cultural Learnings of America for Make Benefit Glorious Nation of Kazakhstan to us lately. I’ve watched the Ali G Show on HBO and am familiar with the character, but to be honest I don’t know a whole lot about the premise of the movie.

So I thought I’d make this an open thread and pose a question to all of you. What do you think of the Borat movie? Is it just silly and funny? Or do you think Sacha Baron Cohen is tapping into a racist and/or xenophobic vein in the United States?

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[...] Borat: just plain funny? or racist and xenophobic? What do you think of the Borat movie? Is it just silly and funny? Or do you think Sacha Baron Cohen is tapping into a racist and/or xenophobic vein in the United States? [...]

Comments

Sewere wrote:

It took me a little while to figure out why Cohen’s use of race (without the social commentary) in his comedy was offensive. The jokes play on the caricatures of minorities and are tuned to the humor of a primarily white audience. A good example is his main character Ali G, which is basically neo-black face.

Posted 01 Nov 2006 at 12:12 pm ¶
dawn wrote:

I’d never seen this guy ’til I caught the first five minutes of Saturday Night Live this week. It made my stomach hurt and I didn’t think it was funny. I also don’t really get WHY it’s funny — but I also don’t like South Park or Family Guy or a lot of the other “really funny” stuff that’s popular right now.

Maybe I’m too old.

Posted 01 Nov 2006 at 12:39 pm ¶
Kc wrote:

I have yet to see the movie, but I’m basing these comments on the TV show.

I think the reason Cohen is funny is not so much that he reinforces the racist impulses of his audience as much as he brings to light the racist, homophobic, and otherwise ignorant attitudes of his target/victims, who in the end are just Everyday Americans. People laugh because they know its not them on the screen being humiliated, but they laugh uncomfortably knowing that its someone very similar to them. He also taps into the backlash against the shallow multi-culturalism that emerged in the nineties, as everyone bends over backwards to respect his culture while he’s around, but feel perfectly happy allying with “Borat’s” bigotry as long as their are no Jews, Homosexuals etc. around. (As when he an entire country western bar to sing along with “Throw the Jews in the well.” Had they known Cohen was Jewish and basically making fun of their ignorance despite their superficial attempts to make the strange foreign guy feel at home, tit probably wouldn’t have gone well.)Also the fact that Americans (and previously the British) can be so sure of their own superiority to not question a man who says things like “My sister, she is prostitute. She is very good, trust me, I know,” because they think that people from other countries are inherently ass backwards. Classic. The country whose ignorance is lampooned most is America, not Kazakhistan, which most Americans couldn’t find on a map.

Samething with when he does the Ali G thing, which I think is more a spoof of everyday blackface, in which whites appropriate black culture in order to be cool, while still reveling in white privilege. At the same time, he plays off of the idea common among elites, both cultural (that ass James Lipton) and politcal (That ass Newt Gingrich) that anyone vaguely associated with African American culture is a retarded goon. The fact that so few people ever call him on his shit is an amazing testement to the condescencion of white American culture, and the only possible reason the words “wow, andy rooney kicks ass,” could ever come out of my mouth. (Rooney kicked him out of his office about thirty seconds into the pieces for being a complete jackass.)

Posted 01 Nov 2006 at 1:09 pm ¶
leon wrote:

He’s just a British guy having a laugh at Americans expense…

Posted 01 Nov 2006 at 1:18 pm ¶
Jess wrote:

Hi. Interesting blog.
On BORAT, just for the record, I have a friend who is Kazakh and gained refugee status in the US (and rightfully so considering what he went through with the racism of Russians in Kazakhstan who tried to firebomb his house his entire childhood). He thinks Borat is absolutely hilarious and makes fun of Russian racism and idiosyncrasies, if anything. If you track down a pic of Kazakh people online, you will see they look nothing like Borat or the average Russian.
I think he’s hilarious too, and boils down the silliness of some Americanisms.
And yeah, they eat horse in Kazakhstan. He’s not making that up.

Posted 01 Nov 2006 at 1:40 pm ¶
Adrianna wrote:

KC i could not agree more. I mean he is brilliant at exposing people racist views by emrsing himself in the Borat characther.

Sewere “Character Ali G, which is basically neo-black face”.

I don’t get why it would be neo black face since not all black people act this way. So who cares ? My question what is authentic black ? is their even such a thing ? can’t we have many identities without it being identified as white tendencies or black tendencies.

Posted 01 Nov 2006 at 1:49 pm ¶
Lyonside wrote:

I remember a few months ago, the Kazakhistan government was not pleased with the Borat character or his popularity. The country is trying to modernize and ultimately seems to want to be part of the EU, so they see this as a slap. I am glad to hear, though, that some Kazakh natives get the joke.

One of my best friends loves this guy. Of course, I often question her sense of humor and wonder if she gets the “in-joke” people are talking about (she makes little people jokes, to my chagrin… *sigh*). If I wonder if the 20-30-something professionals are going to get it, is there hope for the rest of the country?

Posted 01 Nov 2006 at 2:23 pm ¶
Jess wrote:

Yeah my friend laughed at the Kazakh prez. He is basically loving the media attention. They are a former soviet satellite, and are beholden to Moscow in many ways still, but the social climate is like 100 yrs ago there in some ways. People have to burn wood in the kitchen of their modern condo b/c there is no heat, ethnic Kazakhs are treated badly….So on human rights they are behind even more than us in some ways. I think it is interesting what SBC does – he shows the mutability of culture and how people can “become” like each other – that culture is transfered. Ie – I have another friend who is an Orthodox Jew from the Bronx who speaks Jamaican patois….
I think there may be hope for the rest of the country if they can take their eyes away from their own bellybutton for a hot second.

Posted 01 Nov 2006 at 3:05 pm ¶
gem500 wrote:

Thanks for the great writeup, KC!

Posted 01 Nov 2006 at 3:13 pm ¶
Daniel wrote:

I thought he was mildly amusing for the same reasons that KC posted. That was the first time I saw him. After the second or third time I saw him, he was just boring. He sticks to pretty much the same routine and it is obvious that he is making fun of everybody. His goofy, over the top, obnoxious behavior gets old very quickly. His favorite area of humor is anything related to sex. How original! He’s the new Benny Hill. We should move on; he has enough attention already.

Posted 01 Nov 2006 at 3:24 pm ¶
Lyonside wrote:

>He’s the new Benny Hill. We should move on; he has enough attention already.

Yakov Shmirnoff?
Balky?

Posted 01 Nov 2006 at 3:28 pm ¶
Jess wrote:

Well, if anything he’s funny. and he’snot using “neo-black face” because he’s not lampooning black culture, he’s using a presumably black character to provoke stodgy white folksinto fury. And some of those “black” characteristics of his ali G persona are almost beyond common in East or South London where the slang from Jamaican Brits is used by white folks as well. And unfoirtunately, while I think some of KCs comments are true, they also ring out that white people are inherently “uncool” and black people are inherently cool. white kids adopt “black” behaviors more for the love of the rebel and cultural innovator than anything else. I mean, Farnsworth Bentley and Russell Simmons wear argyle – that most british style. Does that mean they want to be white british people?

Posted 01 Nov 2006 at 3:40 pm ¶
KXB wrote:

Cohen’s basically changes the rules of minstrel shows. In the past, white actors would put on black-face and act as buffoons around white actors. In this case, Cohen passes himself off as a Kazakh, and while behaving as a buffoon, turns his surrounding characters (not actors) into buffoons as well.

Of course, Cohen is not being as daring as he wants us to think. If he had portrayed a character closer to his own background – a Jewish guy lacking social graces – would it have elicited the same response? America has no shortage of self-loathing Jews in show business, so Cohen may have felt that was a saturated market.

Also, Cohen takes advantage of America’s new cultural sensitivity. Since it is considered bad manners to point out the backwardness of other cultures (since all cultures are now equal), no one could really point out that Borat’s sexism and anti-Semitism is not welcome.

The problem with Cohen’s approach is that you can only go so far in trying to sell tickets to an audience looking to be insulted. The Simpsons and South Park engage in vicious satire as well, tearing down any person or group that gets a big head. But there is an underlying admiration for America in both those shows. Cohen regards America, or more specifically its rednecks, with contempt. While Jeff Foxworthy is not my cup of tea, he can get away with redneck jokes, because he considers himself a member of the group being made fun of. Chris Rock can joke about a black civil war, because he is black. Cohen is not Kazakh, not American, not a redneck – but believes himself qualified to comment on both cultures. He would have been better off if he just made up a fictional country.

In the manner of a typical Kazakh’s appearance, I can only go by personal experience. I had a number of Kazakh classmates in my MBA program at GW. At first, I thought they were Korean. I asked one of my classmates, and she said that there had been a period of Korean migration into central Asia. So she cannot speak Korean, did not eat Korean food – but this would throw students off.

How about I create a character called Uri – a Jewish guy who wants some land on the shores of the Mediterranean. But he has to come up with a way to get the Arabs that are already there off of it – hey, he can say that God gave him the land. OK, maybe not him personally – but some guys who shared his religion 2000 years ago may have lived there, isn’t that reason enough? Hilarity ensues.

Posted 01 Nov 2006 at 5:10 pm ¶
MM wrote:

KXB –

I have thought along the same lines about Cohen taking on certain targets, but not taking on upper-class, Oxford-educated Jewish people like himself. But, frankly I found the tone of your post verging on the anti-semitic. You’re “Uri” character doesn’t make for an apt comparison to what Cohen does and just seems like an excercise in being offensive to nail him for what you think he does to others. That’s rather childish.

Cohen chose the Kazakh ethnicity because to Westerners its a cipher. For similar, older characters he used Moldovan and Albanian ethnicities. He isn’t commenting on Kazakh people because he doesn’t know shit about them.

You’re comments about American moral/cultural relativity (”since all cultures are now equal”) are way off-base. Do you pay attention to the media? Islam and the Arab world constantly get criticized for being “backwards” here.

And Kazakh and related Central Asian, Turkic peoples definetly aren’t Korean or of Korean descent. Many would be lumped with East Asians based on appearance, but many other Turkic people would be lumped with Europeans or Middle Easterners.

Posted 01 Nov 2006 at 7:01 pm ¶
korshi wrote:

Just in regards to Ali G, you can see from the film (where his grandmother appears) that he is meant to be white. The character is a spoof of wiggers.

Posted 01 Nov 2006 at 7:03 pm ¶
KXB wrote:

MM,

I go by what I saw and was told by my Kazakh classmates – that there was a period of migration from the Korean peninsula into Central Asia, and that as a result, there are groups within Kazakhstan that are ethnically Korean, but do not speak the language or have any other connection to Korea. These groups do not compromise a majority, but they are prominent.

I see you came out swinging the anti-semitism stick. Jerry Seinfeld and Larry David made a great career poking fun at the insecurities and foibles of urban Jews. They can do that, because they are making fun of their own. On Curb Your Enthusiasm, Larry David made a hysterically funny routine where a Holocaust survivor compared his ordeal against a contestant of the TV show “Survivor” Since David is Jewish, he has more leeway to get away with that kind of humor,whereas Jay Leno or David Letterman would not. Cohen does not have even a remote connection to any of the groups he routinely lampoons.

As for my idea of Uri being a childish response, considering that Cohen just signed deal worth over $40 million to bring another one of his characters – Bruno – to the big screen, maybe I’m not childish enough. Respecting other cultures has not paid off quite so well as Cohen’s minstrel act.

Posted 01 Nov 2006 at 7:45 pm ¶
Lisa wrote:

I think Borat is actually pointing out the racism inherent in American society, that doesn’t get exposed publicly very often. For example, on the TV series, Borat went to a bar in Arizona, started singing a song called “Throw the Jew Down the Well” and almost the entire bar was singing along with him. In another episode, he talked to some white southern businessmen, and said something along the lines of “Too bad you can’t have slaves anymore,” and they actually agreed with him, saying, “Yeah it really IS too bad.”

So is HE being racist or is it the people who are going along with him?

I read a great article on Borat recently, can’t remember where, that illustrated how Borat is not making fun of foreigners, he’s using our ignorance of other cultures to make fun of us. I’ll try to find it and post it.

Posted 01 Nov 2006 at 8:16 pm ¶
MM wrote:

KXB-

No offense, but you are very sheltered if you haven’t heard comedians who make fun of groups they don’t belong to. The Bruno character you mention? He’s gay. Now have any straight comedians ever made fun of gay people? Have any black comedians ever joked about white people? And on and on…

What’s imporant is where the humor comes from. If its actually hostile racism/homophobia/religious bigotry/whatever, then there is a problem. The Holocaust/Survivor scene from Curb Your Enthusiasm wasn’t making fun of the Holocaust or Jewish people, it was making fun of the Survivor player’s idiotic insistance of comparing himself to a Holocaust survivor. You can joke about subjects surrounding race without being racist.

Again, Cohen’s Borat work, is not lampooning Kazakh people because he doesn’t know anything about them. He is lampooning a generic Eastern European/Middle Eastern/Western Asian, third world, backwards cliche and pushing the cliche to an extreme. It’s not based in reality.

Posted 01 Nov 2006 at 8:40 pm ¶
MM wrote:

And ditto to Lisa’s point. Cohen aims to get absurd, and potentially offensive, responses from others he encounters.

Posted 01 Nov 2006 at 8:44 pm ¶
Jess wrote:

Agrred. It’s more about the provocation of the people around him than about him as Sacha or Borat or Ali G.
And the Korean comment sabove that’s the thing – are they Koreans living in Kazakhstan or Kazakhs? I think it’s all the mutaility of culture and people being exposed to other cultural influences and so it becomes fluid. And yet Americans cling to the notion of whiteness as real and meaningful. Cultural identity usurps whiteness or blackness any day.
My cousin dated a white guy raised in Kenya. He had, maybe, one white friend. When he came to the states, with his african accent and kaffiyeh people called him a wiggger. He had no idea what a wigger was. He said no, I’m african. People black and white made such fun of him he basically got sick of living here and left saying that it was the most racist place on earth, and that he knew more about africa and it’s culture than any of the people who made fun of him or treated him like an idiot. He was not born into an american version of “whiteness” or whatever other white-isms there are.

And yeah, KXB’s last comment was pretty anti-semitic. And for the record, the Palestinians are not wanted in any of the surrounding countries by their Muslim brethren, and are resented by the Jordanians. And they were nomads before Israel was created. Yes of course they deserve land and a place to live. But that’s a low blow. is that to say that the Liberians (who were once Americans) only have claim to Liberia because they once, hundreds of years before Might have lived there, although when Liberia was formed the people who were born-n-bred there had no clue what these black americans were doing?
They speak English there. So are they African or American? Are they justified in moving to that land because once a long time ago their people came from Africa, which is thousands of miles long?

Posted 01 Nov 2006 at 11:19 pm ¶
KXB wrote:

“No offense, but you are very sheltered if you haven’t heard comedians who make fun of groups they don’t belong to. The Bruno character you mention? He’s gay. Now have any straight comedians ever made fun of gay people? Have any black comedians ever joked about white people? And on and on…”

And how many of them scored a $40 million dollar deal, without having demonstrated box office drawing power? Nowhere did I suggest that Borat will not be a funny movie – but its comedic value does not prevent it from being racist. Disney no longer runs “Song of the South”, even though it had some memorable songs, because the charm of the songs could not be separated from cartoonish depiction of black people in the film.

If we can overlook Cohen’s antics, then we can’t criticize Sarah Silverman for using “chink” repeatedly in her routines either. After all, she’s winking to the camera when she says it, so we know it’s a joke.

“Again, Cohen’s Borat work, is not lampooning Kazakh people because he doesn’t know anything about them. He is lampooning a generic Eastern European/Middle Eastern/Western Asian, third world, backwards cliche and pushing the cliche to an extreme. It’s not based in reality.”

So, does this mean Mickey Rooney is forgiven for Breakfast at Tiffany’s?

To address some of Jess’s issues:

“And the Korean comment sabove that’s the thing – are they Koreans living in Kazakhstan or Kazakhs?”

They are Kazakhs – aside from physical resemblance, they have nothing in common with Koreans. Would you describe a black guy from the south side of Chicago as an African living in America?

“he basically got sick of living here and left saying that it was the most racist place on earth, and that he knew more about africa and it’s culture than any of the people who made fun of him or treated him like an idiot. He was not born into an american version of “whiteness” or whatever other white-isms there are.”

Yeah – that’s why immigrants have stopped coming to the U.S. Never mind that we crossed the 300 million mark. Perhaps his white skin does not afford him the same advantages in the U.S. as it would in Kenya. I’ve known a number of Indians from East Africa, and they say as much as they are viewed with suspicion by black Africans, they are not held in as low regard as their white neighbors, who are seen as the inheritors of their parents’ colonial-era advantages.

“And yeah, KXB’s last comment was pretty anti-semitic. And for the record, the Palestinians are not wanted in any of the surrounding countries by their Muslim brethren, and are resented by the Jordanians. And they were nomads before Israel was created”

Right – that’s why when you look on maps prior to 1948, the region is referred to as the British Protectorate of Nomadia.

If not being liked by their neighbors is reason enough to deny sympathy for a group of people, then Vichy France can be forgiven. In the first half of the 20th century, the Jews were not liked by most European nations, even before the Nazis showed up. Does that excuse the crimes that were committed against them?

Of course, it is common for Americans to confuse anti-Semitism with anti-Zionism. This was not just luck. Amos Elon, who used to write for Haaretz, once asked a sixties era Israeli ambassador to the U.S. what his biggest achievement was and he said, “I have convinced the Americans that anti-Zionism is anti-Semitism.”

Look, I give Cohen some credit. He was smart enough not to pass himself off as a politically organized ethnic group (say Arab or Chinese), and he was smart enough that he targets a demographic – rednecks – that Hollywood doesn’t much care for anyway.

Posted 02 Nov 2006 at 12:09 am ¶
Kc wrote:

I think the sara silverman thing does need a certain amount of re-examining. The point of that joke was that we find racist terms more insulting than other forms of racism. It’s ok to hate chinese people, just don’t say Chink. It’s the same sense of humor (purposefully antagonistic and aiming for the weaknesses in the gloss of multicultralism by exposing the racism inherent underneath) as Cohen, and the same people don’t get it.

Posted 02 Nov 2006 at 1:04 am ¶
Meg wrote:

i liked ali g at 1st b/c in his original show (prior to american show) no one knew him as a comedian so it was funny to see their reactions. But i found i didn’t watch more than a couple of shows because it got very uncomfortable and i couldn’t quite figure out why. Honestly i still don’t know where the line is and it’s hard to know sometimes if you’re laughing at stereotypes or buying into them. Comedians often get the laugh by pushing boundaries, whether it’s picking on their own group (race, religion, nationality, city,etc) or someone else’s and it will go on, probably more b/c they can act cool and edgy with material that’s maybe in poor taste.

Posted 02 Nov 2006 at 5:47 am ¶
Daniel wrote:

Do we really care that much about this guy? Strange how a wacky white comedian gets the most posts on this site.

Lyonside: Thanks for the cryptic response. Were you trying to say that I was way off in my comparison? No matter how you slice it, his character denegrates women and sexuality more than anything else. Seeing the way he acts, I am not surprised that he would have some bad feelings there.

Posted 02 Nov 2006 at 10:28 am ¶
Lyonside wrote:

Don’t be so sensitive, Daniel. Your “Benny Hill” line merely reminded me of other comedians/characters who may fit the one-note-one-joke ethnic type…

But as I said before, I never even HEARD of the character before the NPR mention regarding the Kazahk government’s opinion. Sheesh…

Posted 02 Nov 2006 at 11:21 am ¶
Daniel wrote:

Lyonside: Who? Me? Sensitive!!?? Never! I assure you I am not – Ouch! Darn, I just bumped my knee on my desk…..Nurse!
Ha!

Posted 02 Nov 2006 at 11:46 am ¶
makethelogobiggerhtt wrote:

(Long response, sorry.)

1) I will see this movie.

2) Comedy offends. Always has. Always will. Show me any group not offended by a comedy. Ever.

We see movies because they offer us different viewpoints other than what we experience in everyday life.

__________________

Having set it up like that, I HATED the Ali G character when I first saw it. I mean, I REALLY hated it. More than The Grateful Dead.

But not for race.

Above all else, it just wasn’t even funny. Racist or not, he’s not even good satire of what I took to be wigga culture, from Vanilla Ice to K-Fed Up, not some black face routine.

But when I saw the Borat trailer, I never knew it was the same actor because he fit so well into this idiotic character. And that’s how I judge movies. If anything, the level of satire/acting was close to what Christopher Guest achieves in his mocumentaries.

This is a movie. That’s all. It’s not some great comment on race inless you want it to be.

(Doesn’t mean I’m insensitive to those who do feel it’s racist. All of our experiences are different, so you have to respect it when someone says they feel violated in a way. Can you argue that race, like comedy, is left up to each person’s own interpretaion? Dunno.)

Still, I want to see it because it’s funny seeing a guy chase people around Times Square like a lunatic or letting a chicken loose on the subway. Stupid things along the lines of the French fascination with farce. (Sorry, I won’t get that alliteral again, I promise.)

I also knew it was a fake character by the way he did certain things. Had this been a real guy in a real doc, no way I’d see the movie though because in that context, I think he was pathetic and disgusting – and as such, it would’ve been a different pic, (a doc in fact), not a spoof.

And as for offending, I see here the use of the word ‘racist’. However, it sure seems like the Borat character was as sexist to women as he was anything else. Not excusing it, just saying.

He also came off like a complete backwoods idiot. If anything, backwoods idiots should be protesting. Except, wouldn’t they be too stupid to remember where they put their signs?

If this movie is to be condemned because it’s laughing at sterotypes or some think it’s racist, then apply the same standard to ALL movies that are out. From Blazing Saddles, Rush Hour, 48 Hours, Beverly Hills Cop, White Men Can’t Jump, and so on, we’ve seen race used to poke fun at people constantly.

Thing is, the ones in those movies who cashed the check don’t seem to have a problem. Why not start there and get them to stop being in movies like this then if racist attitudes are perpetuated? I mean, that’s where we’re headed with all this, right?

Don’t forget the Blue Collar Comedy tour with Proud-to-Be-A-Redneck Foxworthy and Cedric the Entertainer on the other side. Let’s get the misogynist rap music and Motley Crue and all heavy metal tunes got ta go also.

Slippery slope indeed.

And why does only humor get the blame for race issues in movies?

American History X and Crash both played to all the typical skinhead/bad white cop sterotypes we know exist. Those films didn’t go for laughes, instead played the issue deadly serious. And as such, they didn’t really even resolve issues at the end, instead, inflame them more.

But what’s the difference though if the basis for bringing up race in a film is humor or drama. It’s still being brought up. Yet somehow, when it’s a comedy, race is off-limits.

(And Silverman also has a lot of offensive jokes that go beyond race, including child molesters.)

Posted 02 Nov 2006 at 4:53 pm ¶
Sewere wrote:

Adrianna: “I don’t get why it would be neo black face since not all black people act this way. So who cares ? My question what is authentic black ? is their even such a thing ? can’t we have many identities without it being identified as white tendencies or black tendencies.”

Neo blackface is basically caricaturing black folks without using burnt cork (see also “Ghetto/Kill Whitey parties”).

I’m still in the process of figuring this out, but I think a good way to test for how well a race/ethnic joke will go is to ask a diverse audience of folks from the race you’re making fun of and see what the answer is… I ask because since Ali G came out in the late 90’s I’ve yet to see him with notable Black Brit comedians (and please feel free to correct me otherwise)….

Posted 03 Nov 2006 at 3:39 am ¶
hadji wrote:

Sacha is a smart ass of the lowest order. He appropriates black culture not for coolness but “to make a point” about those who do knowing full well they’d never “get it” or wouldn’t retailate.

Let’s see how well Ali G goes over in the SouthSide of Chicago where I’m from where you have a diverse mix of black folks–hiphoppers and blue collars and white collars who are sick and tired of being “the butt of the joke”, “the point” to be made, or the mascot for Team Cool.

Similar to Em, Cohen’s characters shoot at caged deer–folks who albeit often out of arrogance or ignorance, are usually trying to sincerely understand his character’s shortcoming’s and flaws and show him a level a respect. He, out the gate assumes the worst of everyone he encounters and assumes they’re fools and sets out to prove it at every turn. (After all, what is modern humor if you can’t make an ass out of someone else?)

Instead of Borat, how about “Irving, the uber-nuerotic Jew who swears everyone wants him dead for being God’s chosen”? Why not dress up in that character?

Wouldn’t be as funny a movie, would it?

How about Akmed the angry, pali-middle-iraqiranisir guy who Hate America but loves Hugh Hefner because “he gets it” when it comes to women?

no, Cohen might offend someone just extreme enough to actually retalliate.

See that’s the joy of being a smartass–you always know the line to cross–which ethnic group, which stereotype, which situation…

There’s no real passion or belief in Borat–it’s i can do it, because it’s safe and I can get away with it.

until someone gets mad enough to kick the crap out me… and like every smartass, it’ll be because somebody else couldn’t take a joke.

Posted 03 Nov 2006 at 6:02 pm ¶
makethelogobigger wrote:

(I should clarify when I said his Ali G. is not offensive for race. It is on several levels. I just meant it’s offensive first because it just ain’t funny.)

And hadji, to your point on people trying to help him, after reading the background on Borat and how they filmed, I think he thought ‘no way I can get a genuine shock reaction if people know this is a moc’.

Not justifying again, just trying to get inside his head. He went into many of those situations under false pretext. The rodeo scene almost caused an actual riot and he’s lucky he didn’t get shot.

(If he was aiming for authentic reactions from people, I think he underestimated that he couldn’t have gotten them any other way. I think the experiemnt here of ahybrid movie half-doc/half-moc fails. Either make it all moc or all doc.

Jackass works on many levels for that same reason with a lot of their hidden-camera stuff. But it’s all real, and as I worte a review about it, is a bunch of dudes doing crazy shit. that’s their demo and it works. The moc ‘Best in Show’ works too, but they’re all actors.

But then, don’t we have to take to task the Cohen Brothers? Fargo, O’ Brother, Raising Arizona, etc. all absolutely target caged deer in their depictions of regional characters, yet Cannes bestows honors and accolades on them.

Double-edge sword? Absolutely.

I just find it hard to believe any comedian makes thinking about the effect and purpose of their act, (and what that means to people), job #1 so much that they are that calculated about it.

It’s about the jokes first, I think all comedians would say that. Rent The Aristocrats and see the most offensive jokes ever told by pretty much every famous comedian out there. Doesn’t this have to start with them?

I flip on comedy central and a whole new generation of comedians from hispanic to asian are now talking about race in their act. Almost as if to say by talking about it, we can eliminate it and make it less important.

I dunno, just seems like it reinforces, not eliminates what people already thing when it comes to race. But what’s the alternative, stop telling jokes?

Who’s gonna make fun of the stupid people then.

Posted 03 Nov 2006 at 6:41 pm ¶
hadji wrote:

is “comedic intent” enough to justify stuff that’s just racist?

Again if Borat were “Irving Drillstein” with similar over-the-top musings this movie’s done before it starts and maybe with good cause.

and the cohen brothers were wrong that flick. but again, the target audience wasn’t black movie goers so the ones that got mad didn’t count. Same with Bill Murray’s Lost In Translation–lots of japanese folks were livid. Didn’t matter tho–they weren’t the target audience.

i guess it’s always funny until it’s your group.

Posted 03 Nov 2006 at 6:59 pm ¶
makethelogobigger wrote:

“is “comedic intent” enough to justify stuff that’s just racist?”

Absolutely never. (I tried to clarify that in my second after reading my first where it came off sounding wrong.) But taking it further, I don’t see stand-ups being any more careful about the issue these days – I see them going on with less restraint these days. Does this help or hurt the cause, ya know?

And, non-white stand-ups from Mencia to Rock seem to make an issue right off the top about race. I can’t recall any white comics doing that though. Maybe they take it for granted, not seeing it as a problem? Just posin’ that one.

As an aside to that point, would Barry Sobel get away with his whigga act these days without taking some heat? (If not, people need to then ask why does eminem get away with it then.)

“… the target audience wasn’t black movie goers so the ones that got mad didn’t count.”

that’s what I’m sayin though. It’s relative in many ways. And to your point, just because blacks weren’t offended in the Cohen’s case doesn’t make it any less offensive to those that might be from their movies.

And to my other point, anyone can find something offensive in any movie. (As for Oblivion, I never heard about protests, so I can’t say someone didn’t have a right to complain – I’m not Japanese.)

But what about the director who holds up a mirror to its subject and reflects a slice of life. Is that racist – or an accurate protrayal? Looks like Coppola caught the Japanese nightlife in various montages. Offensive? I can’t say, but it didn’t look like it. Again, it’s relative I guess.

“i guess it’s always funny until it’s your group.”

Yep. And if there’s ever a movie made that portrays white polish art directors in a poor light, I’ll be the first to organize a protest. (Just hope I hold the sign rightside up.)

;-p

Posted 04 Nov 2006 at 12:55 am ¶
KXB wrote:

It seems that Tony Karon also did not see the humor in Borat:

“Borat’s Not Funny”
http://tonykaron.com/2006/11/03/sorry-sascha-but-borats-not-funny/

Some choice bits:

“The prejudice that Borat is promoting is not against Jews, it’s against Kazakhs, branding them with one of the most toxic slurs in Western discourse — the charge of anti-Semitism.”

“if Sascha Baron Cohen did a skit of some provincial Catholic bishop singing “throw the Jew down the well”, he wouldn’t be opening his movie all over America right now.”

Posted 05 Nov 2006 at 12:12 am ¶
makethelogobigger wrote:

Actually, he ended the movie with a skit of I whatr appears to Jesus being speared by a pitchfork.

Posted 05 Nov 2006 at 2:02 am ¶
Francis wrote:

As I understand it, Cohen humor is all based on second, maybe third degree; similar to what the British “Monty Pythons” did in movies such as “The Life of Brian”, to what Mel Brooks did in “Blazing Saddles”, and to what two Italian producers named Gualtiero Jacopetti and Franco Prosperi made in their ill-understood and underrated 1971 cult movie “Goodbye, Uncle Tom” (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Addio_Zio_Tom). If you haven’t seen that one yet, I sincerely recomment it. There is also a Web site doing something similar regarding stereotypes about blacks in America (http://www.blackpeopleloveus.com/).

When Borat says something like “In America it is now illegal to shoot red Indians. I would like once again to apologize to the staff of the Potawatomi Casinos in Kansas”. It is clear that he is not expressing racist views on Amerindians, but he’s referring to the traditional representation of Amerindians in early American movies as the “bad guys” that ought to be killed by the Cow Boy.

Through the mouth of his characters, whether it is Bruno the Austrian gay TV-presenter, Ali-G the “wigger” or Borat the Khazak journalist, Cohen takes common stereotypes and stretches them to such an extend that we start to see those for what they really are: grotesque. That is why some do find it hilarious, and in the process, Cohen plays around with the average Englishman or American to get his point.

In one of his “documentaries” (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1ETIAoRbm4) Borat visits a hunting ranch in Texas. His gun-loving, endangered species-hunting host spontaneously starts talking about the jews and how the Nazis weren’t able to kill them all. Cohen’s just bounces back “It is a shame you cannot… hunt a Jew”.
“You can’t be that way in this country” replies the host “It’s okay with me, but it’s not with other people”.

Posted 05 Nov 2006 at 7:46 pm ¶
HighJive wrote:

Still organizing my thoughts in response to the movie. But one thing that immediately struck me: The typography in the poster displayed on this post is wrong. Anyone familiar with Cyrillic characters knows the symbol being used as an “A” is actually the phonetic equivalent of an English “D.” In fact, if the entire word in the poster for “BORAT” was translated via Cyrillic characters — provided the “R” character was reversed — it would sound like “Vo-Yah-Duh-T.” What’s my point? None, really. Except that Cohen doesn’t give a shit about the cultures he’s insulting.

Posted 06 Nov 2006 at 4:07 am ¶
EDD2020 wrote:

I agree with Jess. Cohen satirizes the culture of the lower classes of white english society in his speech dress and mannerisms when he is doing the Ali G Character. There is almost no relation between their culture and African american culture. The accent is wrong, the clothing is wrong, the mannerisms are wrong. There is no African-American that would see this and say he’s mimicking us. The differences are just too huge.

Posted 06 Nov 2006 at 4:48 pm ¶
Jess wrote:

In reponse to KXb’s comments:
a. the qestion regarding the koreans as being Koreans living in Kazakhstan or Kazakhs” – I was being half-serious and actually wondering factually if you could clarify and later did for MM.
“I go by what I saw and was told by my Kazakh classmates – that there was a period of migration from the Korean peninsula into Central Asia, and that as a result, there are groups within Kazakhstan that are ethnically Korean, but do not speak the language or have any other connection to Korea. ”
Is this kind of like Americans who move to Africa but have no connection to America?

And no I would not describe a black guy from Chicago an African living in America, but I could probably locate a few hundred thousand who call themselves African-American. Which in the case of the white african who moved to the States and left, in reality, is – an American raised in Africa. So an african american, but not an African-American. No? Sort of?

b. And further to your comment about the white-american-in-africa-guy, he was not neccessarily afforded advantages in Africa – that is pure assumption – and any he did receive are the same as any American has were they in Africa or not. i.e. Free school, reliable electricity, a water supply…Or if you were being sarcastic, and saying he was not spited because of his whiteness, well he got the spite here, so he left, preferring Africans to Americans.
and yes, I understand your point about the suspicion of whites in Africa, but a. he was American, and b. Americans live on colonized land too, which was originally the Native Americans, who now live on proscribed lands, like other people we can think of. So are we to negate all of our existences? Post-colonial inheritors- well, that’s America. “GW”? Do you mean George Washington U? Named for the colonizer, slave-owner, Presedent? Inheritors, indeed.
And immigrants come here for the money not out of some cultural impulse to commune with Americans. That is why we passed 300 million. The US is a parking lot, people show up, get what they want or need and either stay or go. Surely they find racism. But yet they come. Huh.
c. Regarding the Israel comment, if you read what I said, you’d see I am sypathetic to the Palestinians’ situation, so the Vichy comment is not applicable. What is going on there is a no-win war. As the Palestinians were there historically, but so were Jewish people, Christians, Muslims, Africans, Mongols….Most people in the history of the world have been invaded, displaced, killed, enslaved and colonized at some time or another, so no one lays sole claim to such victimization.
d. I noticed there was no riposte regarding Liberia. Huh.

Perhaps we can shift gears and contemplate African-American rappers from new york who wear diamonds farmed by enslaved African children and call themselves “Gotti”? I personally, wonder where that might take us.

Posted 07 Nov 2006 at 6:41 pm ¶
9/11 scripted lie wrote:

Borat is similar to Amos ‘n’ Andy in that a person of one ethnic or racial group pretends to be a member of another and then acts stupid and tries to be funny. Theoretically the US was past all of that. 9/11 was the “New Pearl Harbor” that “helps us” hate Muslims like we hated the “Japs” in WW II after Pearl Harbor. This hate helps people in the US excuse the degredation of one ethnic group by another.

What is anti-semitism? Would it be okay for a white Christian guy (or black) or a Muslim (ok… or anyone other than a Jew) to make themselves up as a Jew and then act like all of the offensive stereotypes that Jews don’t like for some movie called “Shlomi” or similar? Shlomi would look really stupid in one way or another and do all of the things that would make Jews cringe. Humor for some at the expense of others… I guarantee that such a movie would be labeled “anti-semitic” and never even dream of reaching ANY market on planet Earth.

Sacha Cohen proves that racism, ethnicism, or cutting up Gays as a group and similar are okay as long as the group that is being cut up can’t effectively fight back. Just like its always been. I wouldn’t mind as much if Sacha Cohen was in character making fun of Jews, but I sadly predict there are motives in all of this other than humor or making money. Its not about humor. Its about making Muslims look stupid. The offensive cartoons of Mohammed in Denmark weren’t an accident. The guy who started the whole thing met with Daniel Pipes (the top Muslim hater in the world) before hand. Borat helps in its small way – sway public opinion against Muslims. Any Muslim that finds Borat offensive “doesn’t have a sense of humor” or something. If you want to see something funny look at the Anti-Zionist cartoons that were put out in Iran in response to the offensive Mohammed cartoons. Oh… not funny? Didn’t think so. Who really doesn’t have a sense of humor?

So much in the “Free West” is utter propaganda. I especially like the amazing jet airliner that struck the Pentagon on 9/11. Because it hit the solid concrete structure, it was literally pulverized and couldn’t be found. Okay… Incredibly its fuselage penetrated 9.5 total feet of concrete, internal walls, desks, support beams, etc. and traveled 50 yards or so through all of this and punched a perfectly round exit hole in the final wall it destroyed. Amazing!!! America believe that a jet made of thin aluminum could do this… Really Amazing!!! There are issues about WTC 7, the Bin Laden video with the fat guy who looks hardly like Bin Laden at all, and more. America just eats it up. The media doesn’t question this. They don’t question that Larry Silverstein (one of Borat’s relatives) bought the WTC complex, insured it for terrorism and then it all comes crumbling down 6 weeks later. Maybe the next Borat type movie should be about a dumb American guy named “George.”

We have rounded up some Muslims unjustly here and there in America. Most have been released. Just a few more Borat movies, another fake terrorism event to help us unite with the right wing nuts and soon we can have the concentration camps again… in America… yes America – they rounded up the “Japs” in WW II. Oh gee am I taking all of this to seriously? I’ll relax when “Shlomi” is released in theaters in the US.

Posted 07 Nov 2006 at 11:36 pm ¶
Jess wrote:

9/11…Weird segue. You might want to check out some Aryan websites and post there too if that’s how ytou feel. And Silverstein did not buy the WTC site, he signed a large lease for the use of the buildings. Yes he’s shady but he did not attack them. Try to remember you can only believe some of what you see, half of what you read, and none of what you hear.
Propaganda? The whole terrorist m.o. is one big media play online and on the internet. Anyone who kills someone over a cartoon needs to relax.

Posted 08 Nov 2006 at 5:00 pm ¶
9/11 scripted lie wrote:

Jess:

As could be expected: Any criticism of someone Jewish and you suggest I go to the Aryan sites. Just so you know, there are plenty of Jewish people who don’t buy the 9/11 BS.

Just so you don’t connect the wrong dots, Semite (used to) imply “From the bloodline of Shem, eldest son of Noah.” This includes Arabs and Jews who really come from this bloodline. Not the Ashkenazi Jews who come from a Turkish tribal family and used to reside in of all places Khazakstan. Jewish theoretically means (perhaps should mean) someone who at least sometimes practices Judaism. Zionist is a right wing Jewish movement that regardless of what they say they want to do, it is pretty clear that they seek to erradicate any non-Jews in their occupied area. I am MOST CERTAINLY Anti-ZIONIST. I think of what the NAZIs where to GERMANs. Thats what the ZIONISTS are to JEWS. I can dislike Nazis and still like Germans. Likewise I can dislike Zionist extremists and still have Jewish friends who are of sounder minds. The Zionist BS is that if you are against them you are anti-SEMITIC. Wow… what a stretch that is. Get clear in your mind what I oppose. Yeah… I hate Jews who want to exterminate all the Muslims… they’re called ZIONISTS!!!!

I see a movement that certainly serves the right wing Zionists and Pat Robertson Christians. Your analysis of the cartoon thing is naive. Let’s publish some Black Sambo cartoons in the US. Have him act stupid and do degrading things. See what happens. I really would rather not. By the same thought, why was it so much fun to publish Mohamed in ways that were hand picked to infuriate Muslims. Muslims are killed every day with the help of the US. That’s what builds up the intense anger that you seem to think only came from a cartoon. The cartoon was the last straw in an endless train of humilaition and death. Lets bomb your neighborhood and then ask YOU to lighten up.

Back to Borat. Why didn’t they make fun of an Indian guy? Oh yeah… doesn’t fit the cause. My point was simple. The mood in the US is “we ain’t exactly fond of Muslims and Arabs since they killed 3000 of our people…” This makes it real easy for a movie to show up that just reinforces this sick train of thought. I used to believe the 9/11 stuff too. I suggest you search for some pics of the Pentagon. Maybe you can explain how an aluminum plane could do that. You won’t. You’ll just blab your BS that was spoon fed to you on Fox News. How do I know who did the 9/11 deeds? I don’t. How do YOU know? If it came out that Arabs DIDN’T do it, I wonder if all of this anti-Arab/anti-Muslim crap would be so popular.

You accuse me of being a Nazi. No dear. YOU are the Nazi. You know why? You go with the flow… “Oh lighten up!!!” etc. People are dying in Afghanistan, Iraq, and Palestine. You see this as being justified. Are you sure? Germans at the end of WW II were forced to see what their government was doing. They were shocked. You need to open you eyes a little. 9/11 has way too many holes in it. The biggest thing people should remember about Nazi Germany: DON’T FOLLOW ANYTHING BLINDLY WITHOUT SOME CRITICAL THOUGHT!!! Get it? I suppose you look at the Zapruder film of the Kennedy assassination and buy the 1 bullet BS too right?

What do you think? Maybe “Shlomi” would be a hilarious hit. I wonder if Hollywood is working up some scripts right now… Nah… probably not.

Posted 08 Nov 2006 at 8:30 pm ¶
mt wrote:

i find cohen’s work reiteritive. i think it is really uncreative to keep reproducing stereotypes of immigrants and people of colour in order to expose racism. Although perhaps his desire to expose race as a central issue in a work may stem from his own Jewish identity, the fact remains that Sasha Baron Cohen is a light skinned british man playing a character from a country that is at a geographical intersecion between europe and asia. a kind of ambiguously racialized place where he was NOT born. Cohen is tricky in that he is careful to do this brown face, black face and even gay face in his characters in ways where he attempts to alleviate himself of the responsibility for misusing one of the oldest tropes in comedy intended for mostly white audiences. whitey is running his own personal minstrel show.

i noted in another discussion on this, ali g’s character was referred to as neo-blackface because he is supposed to be playing a clueless wigga. so, really he is making fun of white people. so this is supposed to make it okay. well it is not too cool, if you asked me.

well, there are lots of ways of talking about racism and even making fun of it, without implicating violent stereotypes of people that fuel people who aren’t on cohen’s ironic high horse.

cohen’s irony stems from his white privilege, i would argue.

at the end of the day, anyone can go around and act stupid, and videotape it, and it will incite cheap laughs.

the entertainment industry actually seems to thrive by promoting people who have not had the same access as white people into these yellow face, blackface, brown face, magic darkie roles.

and when you think that it took hip hop like 20 years to really really thrive in the mainstream and it is only in the last maybe 10 years overcoming the denegration from white people and snobby pocs alike. my point here is: there is alot of creative growth to be had in the entertainment world when it comes to both equity and pushing the bounds of representation in the media. and in my poc-child-of-immigrants’ head, cohen is much more annoying and offensive than any song about bitches, hoes, and booty could possibly ever be (sorry white feminists).

essentially, Cohen is making his ample and fresh bread and butter off of global racism, and isn’t that irritating in and of itself?

Posted 11 Nov 2006 at 1:43 am ¶
9/11 scripted lie wrote:

I found Borat on Wikipedia. Here are some escerpts:
Cohen provides Borat’s backstory as follows. Borat is a reporter, born in 1972 in Kuçzek, Kazakhstan. He is the son of Asimbala Sagdiyev and Boltok the Rapist, who is also his maternal grandfather. He is also the former husband of Oksana Sagdiyev, who was the daughter of Mariam Tuyakbay and Boltok the Rapist. His relationship with his mother seems to be unpleasant, and Borat has commented that “she wishes she was raped by another man.” Borat has a sister named Natalya, regarded as the fourth-best prostitute in Kazakhstan, and with whom he often fornicates, and a younger brother named Bilo, who is mentally retarded and must be kept locked behind a metal door or in a cage. In an interview, Borat said, “My brother Bilo has a small head but very strong arms. He have 204 teeth (193 in mouth 11 in nose)! You can do anything to him – he do not remember nothing! He is a sex crazy … all day long he in his cage look on porno & rub rub rub!”

Here is some more:
Cohen has listed Borat’s hobbies as ping pong, disco dancing, sunbathing, shooting dogs, and taking pictures of women on the toilet. In addition to being a sexist and a homophobe, Borat is prejudiced against Jews, Uzbeks and Gypsies. Borat has said that he once suffered a “very bad Gypsy attack,” in which his wife Oksana Sagdiyev was stolen and “they touch horse in very bad way; it was depressed”. Borat claims to have the tightest anus of his village, tight enough to open a bottle of Pepsi. He has had many diseases including gonorrhoea, syphilis and herpes.

I continue to wonder if perhaps some non-Jewish person were to produce “Shlomi” or better yet at this point a movie called “Sacha Cohen.” I really don’t want to decend to the level of the movie Borat. Just for example, Einstein was the product of the marriage of 2 cousins. I guess there could be all sorts of references to interbreeding. There could be references to a plethora of other Jewsih sterotypes. They could also cast the character as a rapist with v.d.

What troubles me is the stark contrast of what we see when the object of mockery is a non-Jew vs. the image that I am sure makes readers cringe just to think about (an insulting hard hitting mockery of the Jewish culture). What a contrast. Borat is something to be laughed at. Shlomi would be the end of careers and the ruining of lives for anyone who would even attempt such a thing. The news media (mostly Jewsih owned) would attack it to no end. It shows the usual sick commentary of human behavior hasn’t improved AT ALL from when Amos ‘n’ Andy were on the radio. The thought is “Its funny as long as MY ethnic group is not being degraded. If its someone else… who cares.” Does anyone remember the NAZI movies depicting Jews as rats? So depicting Borat as some shallow low life racist with v.d. is “way different” ? No way. Its a variant of the same shallow theme – humor at the expense of others. For some coincidental reason Borat isn’t an Eskimo. They’re pretty remote. He’s not Omish. They wouldn’t even go to the movies. No… he’s from Khazakstan (former homeland of all Ashkenazi Jews). Khazakstan is a Muslim state. A war won’t be declared by way of this movie like 9/11 caused, but it reinforces the idea of seeing Muslims as disgusting people. Incidentally there is that scene (so I read) in the movie where they show Borat leading a bunch of people in “throw the Jews down the well.” Sacha Cohen is the racist REALLY and Muslims have been killed wholesale in the last 50 years. Millions have REALLY died. Nobody has thrown any Jews down wells in America lately that I have heard of. Let’s have a movie that shows Jewish racism. “Oh no… that doesn’t exit!”

When Shlomi comes out in theaters, I’ll take it all back and say I was wrong.

Posted 12 Nov 2006 at 9:38 pm ¶
KXB wrote:

Jess,

Rather than encourage your free association style of writing, I will address this one unintentionally hilarious comment:

“Most people in the history of the world have been invaded, displaced, killed, enslaved and colonized at some time or another, so no one lays sole claim to such victimization.”

True – but how many nations currently get $3 billion a year in US aid plus substantial military equipment to continue their colonization and displacement of a land that is not theirs?

Posted 14 Nov 2006 at 6:13 pm ¶
9/11 scripted lie wrote:

Every other day there is either something big or small that insults, invades, robs from, or kills Muslims. I see in CNN today that the Netherlands will ban Burqas in public. Next it will probably ban any kind of traditional Muslim dress for women. Here is the CNN link:
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/11/17/dutch.burkas.ap/index.html

Frankly I think the Muslim standards for women are about a century behind the times. Think however how Americans would have felt if in 1900 when or if they visited Tahiti, their women would have to walk around BY LAW topless or naked. Western culture was given the time to find its way forward and it was a slow process.

Every little bit helps drive a wedge between the theoretically liberated West and the Muslim world. I wonder how liberated we really are. How free are we? We don’t have as much variety or freedom of choice as we might think. As long as you are into eating up the propaganda laced “entertainment”, you can get everything you want. If you are looking for anything different from the propaganda tract, you won’t find it very easily.

Americans are so incredibly gullible. In the same day they will be told that racism is wrong and then see a racist movie like Borat come along being promoted as “a funny poke at human behavior” or such. “Throw the Jews Down the Well” will get you thrown out of your job and maybe with a little manipulation thrown in jail. What utter fiction (in the Borat flick). Of course, as usual, its those horrible racist white people in the south (in this case southwest) being led to sing it against the poor victim Jews. I can imagine that parts of this film were directed a little bit here and there. They were probably informed that “it was just as joke… go ahead sing along… it’ll be funny…” No no no. The real racist is Sacha Cohen. He isn’t enlightening anyone. This doesn’t show anything about human nature we didn’t already know. The biggest laugh probably comes to the Zionists who say “What fools these goyem are. They can be talked into anything.”

This movie helps along the attitude of “Throw the Muslims Down the Well.” Only difference is that its quite real. There are some videos on google about some of the recent atrocities committed against Muslims by the West:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8763367484184611493
The Taliban stopped opium production. Drugs are a big part of the US economy. There was a desire to put a pipeline through Afghanistan that the Taliban stood in the way of. Watch this video:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8797525979024486145
9/11 comes along (on purpose), the “Muslims extremists” are blamed, and instantly Americans became radically changed in their attitudes toward the Muslim world. We were talked into invading two Muslim countries. It was all planned for oil, drugs, and Zionist aims. Think what you want. Do you think for yourself? Racism or ethnicism is wrong? Then either make fun of everyone/anyone equally or just don’t do Borat movies. I know… I must seem so uptight. I’ll be happy to laugh my ass off when Shlomi comes to a theather nearby.

Posted 17 Nov 2006 at 11:43 pm ¶
Jess wrote:

Re: 9/11 scripted lie’s reply to my post.
A. Inever watch Fox news, so maybe wring out your own stereotypes.
B. I am not blindly following anyone or anything
C. I never said you were a nazi, but you do sound like one. Nazi of what kind, is another question.
D. There is nothing fun about the Danish cartoons, but for someone to get killed over them is absurd. That is called blindly following, no?
E. You give me the history of Zionism but yet refer to a Wiki on a fictional character to make a point. Academics are surely in distress.
F. I and most people I know have nothing against Muslims, but militant people of any sort are far beyond the pale (i.e. crazy white people who kill abortion doctors). The revival of public beheadings a la the middle ages is not charming now, nor was then, now was it in WW2. How to make peace with barbarism and blind faith? surely you have a wiki for that too.

Posted 21 Nov 2006 at 1:12 pm ¶
Jess wrote:

Re: KXB’s comment on my free association style.
Check out what is happening in Darfur. Those people are being moved and killed because the Chinese want the oil underneath them. China is spending in millions if not billions that it is funneling to the Sudanese officials and the janjaweed to “clear the land” and proceed with developing the Sudan. Looks like genocide to me.
And why does the US not get involved there? Because they want to wean from Saudi Arabia’s oil supply.

Posted 21 Nov 2006 at 1:19 pm ¶
Jess wrote:

And just for the heck of it 9/11, out of pure curiosity, how do you feel about the Islamic gov’t treatment of the Bahai in Iran? Or the Armenians by the Turkish? Or the North Koreans being starved by their own “leader”? Or the Kurds by Saddam? Or even the Iraqi Jews who were in Iraq before they were on the Mediterranean?
Or do you reserve sympathy for the people of Iraq, Afghanistan, and Palestine?

Posted 21 Nov 2006 at 1:36 pm ¶
Jess wrote:

Think upon this 9/11:
from the washington post, not wikipedia:

China National Petroleum Corp., still owned by the Communist Party government, bought into the Sudan consortium in 1996. It joined with Sudan’s Energy Ministry to build the country’s largest refinery, then last year invested in a $300 million expansion that nearly doubled production, according to a report in the Shenzhen Business Post.

The consortium’s Heglig and Unity oil fields now produce 350,000 barrels per day, according to the U.S. Energy Department. Separately, CNPC owns most of a field in southern Darfur, which began trial production this year, and 41 percent of a field in the Melut Basin, which is expected to produce as much as 300,000 barrels per day by the end of 2006. Another Chinese firm, Sinopec Corp., is erecting a pipeline from that complex to Port Sudan on the Red Sea, where China’s Petroleum Engineering Construction Group is building a tanker terminal.

Sudan’s bloody north-south conflict began long before China arrived, but oil has dramatically increased the stakes as well as the government’s ability to pursue the battle. The war is a struggle over the resources of the south, pitting the mostly Muslim, Arab elite that runs the government in Khartoum against the largely Christian and animist African tribes who live in the lower half of the country.

As the oil began to flow, Sudan relied on Chinese assistance to set up three weapons factories near Khartoum, Ryle said. Human rights groups say oil receipts have helped pay for a government-led scorched-earth campaign to remove mostly ethnic Nuer and Dinka tribes from around the oil installations.

A report by the U.S.-funded Civilian Protection Monitoring Team, which investigates attacks in southern Sudan, asserted that government troops have “sought to clear the way for oil exploration and to create a cordon sanitaire around the oil fields.”

In case you missed it:

As the oil began to flow, Sudan relied on Chinese assistance to set up three weapons factories near Khartoum, Ryle said.

Posted 21 Nov 2006 at 5:14 pm ¶
9/11 scripted lie wrote:

Jess, on the question of my sympathies, I feel that for any oppressed people. In the list you give, the Armenians 1.5 million killed in WWI by the Turks don’t get a single movie about the event (I have never found one). In addition to your list, consider the millions of Native Americans in N. AND S. America who were obliterated by one means or another. Consider the 7 million Ukranians killed by Stalin before Hitler even got started (Stalin killed 20 million total – so I read). There’s Pol Pot who killed millions in Cambodia. Did you know that the US backed him initially as a strategy to work against N. Vietnam? Of course there were the TENs of millions who starved to death in China’s “Great Leap Forward” under Mao Tse Tung. Millions have died in Africa in many different genocidal events. Perhaps we should have a museum in Washington that points to reasons why we shouldn’t allow events like this to happen. We do sort of. Unfortunately it is dedicated only to 6 million Jews who died in WWII under the Nazis. The other 6 million who died in the Nazi camps don’t seem to count. Incidentally, under the Nazis, if you had a Jewish father, you went to the camp as a Jew. If you were a certain percentage “Jewish” from your family tree, but were not really Jewish or practicing Judaism, you went to the camps as a Jew. I won’t bother going there lest a square mustache grow under my nose, but I wanted to bring up that some of those “Jews” who died in the camps wouldn’t qualify for the exclusive immigration rules that allow Jews to go to Israel to live. They’d say “Sorry you aren’t Jewish.” I’m digressing a little here.

Back to genocide and atrocities, what do you need for from the masses if you want to commit such a horrible thing? You need them to 1 – follow whatever you say and 2 – they need to have a less than favorable view of the group you want to wipe out. Hitler had his people either following him like a god or they feared for their own lives so they went along with the flow to save their own lives. As far as the people Hitler wanted to wipe out go, he needed to convince the masses that they were either enemies of the state or undesirable (like gays and mentally retarded). America did similar when it rounded up Japanese Americans and sent them off to camps. If the war had gone bad and Americans were starving, do you think that the Japanese would have gotten any food? Currently we have some in America who think Bush is “God in the Whitehouse” AND we have people laughing it up as they watch a movie that degrades an ethnic group. Never again…? It could happen again.

I have seen other posts here that seem to believe that humor MUST come at the expense of someone. I don’t think that kind of humor is healthy. I think of the Pink Panther movies where the main character is a bumblimg Frenchman played by Peter Sellers (who isn’t French). Similar to Borat right? I don’t think so. Inspector Clouseau doesn’t have 3 venerial diseases. He isn’t a disgusting racist. He just isn’t disgusting period. He’s clumsy, but someone you like. The movie Its a Mad Mad Mad Mad World doesn’t have to cut some race or ethnic group up. I thought it was pretty funny. There are some parts that are a small bit stereotypish, but they are minor. I can think of many movies that are quite funny without doing what Borat does. Notice that its called BoRAT (rat). Why not Ibrahim or Ismael? Borat is dedicated (from beginning to end) to degrading Muslim people and their culture.

Muslims already have quite a battle to fight around the world right now. I DO believe that there are Muslim extremists that HAVE committed terrorism. I DO NOT believe that ALL of the terrorism events that have been reported on the news were done by Muslim terrorists. There are some with plenty of money and influence who want to make the Western world hate Muslims. They’ll do anything to help this aim. From false flag terrorist events to cartoons that enrage Muslims to movies that make a guy from Khazakstan look like a scum bag. This is nothing new. Americans were exposed to a similar PR campaign in WWII against Japanese and Japanese Americans.

I have many friends. Some are closer than others. Occassionally I might be in the presence of one of my friends when all of a sudden he decides to break out an n-word joke. I want to keep him as a friend so I’m not going to lecture him on what’s wrong with his attitude, but should I reward him and laugh it up? When Americans went to the Borat movie, they said (symbolically) “racism is okay.” I don’t think movies like that should be rewarded. It all starts somewhere with smaller things leading to bigger. Borat is a crack in the dam. Humor is an art. Humor at the expense of an ethnic group is an atrocity (or could possibly lead to one IMHO).

Posted 22 Nov 2006 at 12:27 pm ¶